Classic Horsemanship  

Go Back   Classic Horsemanship > The Classroom > The Hackamore Horse

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-26-2012, 11:47 AM   #21
Rex Easley
Weanling
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Eastern Oregon
Posts: 57
Default Hackamore

That is true Jimmy. Guys like Bobby and Tony Amaral could get a high carriage in a snaffle bit horse because they ride with hackamore hands for the most part. They understood lift but they never rode a hackamore horse with signal. I have worked for most of these men and grew up with them. They all ride pressure based and a horse must learn to come to the pull and rein over the neck. Tony Amaral understoon signal based riding but converted to pressure based once he began riding for the public. Pressure based systems can be used quite well for short rides but will never last outside. I have found that any time a person intereferes with the feet with a pull or a leg, you will lose a lot of try at the end of a long day. I have had to peddle my horses home more that once. I have found that by using signals and balance I can trot out, gather, sit in the gate to sort, load trucks and trail cows back out without losing hardly anything in the face or feet. I think anyone wanting to learn to use a hackamore would learn so much about it by trying to use one on a horse all day.
Rex Easley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 12:13 PM   #22
Jimmy
Foal
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 157
Default

This is pretty interesting to me. The requirements of showing a cow horse and winning may mean the horse has to come to the pull. I have heard that expression from Bobby himself, even thought I think Bobby had a lot more going for him than most of his peers. But you hear that a lot, as a matter of fact, about coming to the pull. This is why we see horses that have such a vigorous warm up before showing, reminding them of the pull. But, you are right, its only going to be good for so long. Only has to be for a few minutes in fact. But the requirements for an all day horse are quite different. We need something that stays fresh and light and that we can't wear out.
Jimmy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 12:21 PM   #23
Rex Easley
Weanling
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Eastern Oregon
Posts: 57
Default Hackamore

The thing that I like about the hackamore is that is uses balance. A horse will learn to pack a hackamore by learning to find neutral. The hackamore works a lot like a tall spade bit, the neutral is when the horse is up in the withers and breaks at the poll in a way that allows the hackamore to hang straight down from the hanger. The rider supports the hackamore so it is just off the chin or a Fiador can be used for this too. This creates a "neutral" or a place where the horse will learn to go and eventually stay. I have found that this place is nearly impossible for a horse to find in the snaffle bit, once a horse gets to the correct head position for the snaffle to hang straight downfrom the hanger, the reins still create pressure on the mouth, a person cannot lift it to a nuetral position and stay for any amount of time. You can teach a horse to stay in the neutral position with a snaffle but he is not staying because of neutral, he stays because you as a rider have taught him to go there for things to get quite from the rider. This is the most important difference between the two IMO.
Rex Easley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 12:27 PM   #24
Jimmy
Foal
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 157
Default

As good a description of the difference as any I have read.
Jimmy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 12:48 PM   #25
Baquero
Foal
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 116
Default

Wow this discussion has really taken off, thanks for your insights Jeff. You said what I was trying to explain earlier in a very clear manner. When working with signals what are your thoughts Jeff about using the reins and the legs. This is something I always like to discuss with people because I like to reinforce my rein cues with the movement of my seat. By seat, I am referring to anything above the knee. But I have also talked with many who like to isolate there leg cues with there rein movements. I always work off of one rein, never both of them together. But sometimes play around with only using one rein instead of one rein and movement of the seat.
Baquero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 08:28 PM   #26
Rex Easley
Weanling
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Eastern Oregon
Posts: 57
Default Hackamore

I like to try and make my horses responsible for own carriage. My main goal is to have my horse looking for my signals all the time. I have found that once a horse understands to look for neutral in the face and in the center of my body, time on the job will get them really thinking. There are only so many jobs on a ranch with cattle, once the horse has done each job i.e. Sorting, shipping, branding, gathering, weaning, and doctoring. Weather it be yearlings, pairs, dry cows ect. A horse, after a few minutes in that job will pay attention and get in the groove. I have found that the only time I use leg is when a horse has stopped looking for my signals and I will mearly set my spur on them (one time) with a very fast rowel motion up the side and get out. All I want is for them to pay attention to my balance and my rein signals. I have found that if a person uses leg to position a horse, lift a shoulder, press them off, lift their backs ect, a horse will get to where they are dependent on the leg. I try to position my horses using "lift" into my body and reins. Once a horse understands lift, they float like air and foot position can be easily obtained with a shift of balance off my center.
Rex Easley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 08:41 PM   #27
Rex Easley
Weanling
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Eastern Oregon
Posts: 57
Default

The colt in this video was a 4 year old and had not been touched when i got him in. These videos were shot at about 90 days riding and all the riding was outside, never in an arena. I wanted to show how a horse can get in the hackamore on the job. A horse ridin in an arena with good ground would be much more confident in his stops and hold a pivot foot on his turnarounds. This is the first time he had been ridin inside and schooled away from cattle. I used to do lots of dry work early in the training and then go to cattle later but I have found that once a horse has a reason to move, they are much more apt to do so with purpose. I have found that by riding out first, a horse will maintain float in the feet and not dull out. A person can always go and clean up manuvers inside later without losing the float in the feet. I was able to ride this horse for 90 days and never have to pull his face one time. He was as pure a horse as I have ever made. I have cheated most horses in the past and used leg, bumping and pulls to get a desired look and feel, mainly because I was impatient and knew the horse would take it and fill in the gaps. I hope to never do that again.
Rex Easley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2012, 01:03 PM   #28
Jimmy
Foal
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 157
Default

So really we have come up with a new language that might be useful. Pull based training, and signal base training. My question is this: can we incorporate the two in our training? Can a pull be a type of signal?
I also like the idea of "hackamore hands" for riding in a snaffle. I think this is a good way to put it,(yeah Jeff) and is more or less the way I ride, or try to ride, in a snaffle.
Jimmy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2012, 07:47 PM   #29
Baquero
Foal
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 116
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Easley View Post
A horse ridin in an arena with good ground would be much more confident in his stops and hold a pivot foot on his turnarounds. This is the first time he had been ridin inside and schooled away from cattle. I used to do lots of dry work early in the training and then go to cattle later but I have found that once a horse has a reason to move, they are much more apt to do so with purpose. I have found that by riding out first, a horse will maintain float in the feet and not dull out. A person can always go and clean up manuvers inside later without losing the float in the feet.
This has been one of the things I have been learning lately to deal with. Two years ago I sold my cattle after many years and picked up more horses. I have had to rely on others to allow me to work my horses on there cattle. The rest of the time I am dry reining the horses, I have found that I focus more on maneuvers and am more picky about things earlier on. Compared to when I was out working my horses daily on the cattle, I did a better job of "fixing it up" for the horses and then they would fill in the rest. It was more natural for them, compared to when I am working them dry I find myself being more picky early on and forcing things in my timing. This has affected my horses enough that I am going to purchase a few cattle again this spring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Easley View Post
I have found that the only time I use leg is when a horse has stopped looking for my signals and I will mearly set my spur on them (one time) with a very fast rowel motion up the side and get out. All I want is for them to pay attention to my balance and my rein signals. I have found that if a person uses leg to position a horse, lift a shoulder, press them off, lift their backs ect, a horse will get to where they are dependent on the leg. I try to position my horses using "lift" into my body and reins. Once a horse understands lift, they float like air and foot position can be easily obtained with a shift of balance off my center.
On numerous occasions after riding my client's horses, I will bring my horses into the arena and work on them working off of the balance in my seat. I will stand in the roping box and work on movements of the feet by shifting my balance and lifting my reins. This almost always brings up a conversation with others asking what I am doing. They think I am trying to teach my horse to stand still, when in reality he is gradually responding to my seat movements and shifts in my balance. It is very easy to install a flying lead change or a turn around on a cow when they are working off of your movements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post
So really we have come up with a new language that might be useful. Pull based training, and signal base training. My question is this: can we incorporate the two in our training? Can a pull be a type of signal?
I also like the idea of "hackamore hands" for riding in a snaffle. I think this is a good way to put it,(yeah Jeff) and is more or less the way I ride, or try to ride, in a snaffle.
The hard thing with this is, I don't ever see a horse searching for a pull on it's face. I think another way to put it is pressure vs. balance. The differences we have talked about are that pressure based teaches a horse to respond to pressure by searching for neutral. The pull on the rein, and the horse is taught to search for the slack or release in the rein, this might also be called the neutral. Whereas in a balance based approach the horse is in neutral and responds to the changes in balance be it in the hackamore, spade bit, or coming from the riders core.
Baquero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2012, 08:24 PM   #30
Jimmy
Foal
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 157
Default

"The hard thing with this is, I don't ever see a horse searching for a pull on it's face. I think another way to put it is pressure vs. balance. The differences we have talked about are that pressure based teaches a horse to respond to pressure by searching for neutral. The pull on the rein, and the horse is taught to search for the slack or release in the rein, this might also be called the neutral. Whereas in a balance based approach the horse is in neutral and responds to the changes in balance be it in the hackamore, spade bit, or coming from the riders core. "


We are talking about a natural neutral balance, then to change it for the sake of a movement means a disruption of the balance, as a signal, then a return to the neutral.
If that is true, than the pull can disrupt the balance, and become a signal.
If is not to say that we are just pulling on a face that doesn't move. It is a pull that affects the feet, and creates a response. Little signals with a snaffle, followed by one strong pull, waking up the feet, then returning to little signals, can really get some things sharp, for instance.
But really, when it comes to a pull, we all know to stay away from that as much as possible. I am referring to the reality of life in the real world. There is a time when the horse is tired or bored or both, or somewhere else mentally. Then there is the time when we are the same way. When we both get that way, there can be a little bit of trouble.
Sometimes it just a "hey! Do you feel THAT!" With a young horse, we can give him lots of time to learn and get there. With the older horse that has done something a gazillion times, can he stay sharp, without the occasional, "come here!"? I know we have all been there a time or two. So even in the hackamore, the horse may have to learn to take a pull now and then. Maybe.
Jimmy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Riding Bridleless Baquero Member Journals/Blogs 7 05-07-2014 08:28 AM
Riding the Spade at Speed Baquero Straight up in the Bridle 1 10-11-2013 12:03 AM
Is it true? Riding with only the alamar knot? Corry Straight up in the Bridle 3 06-02-2013 09:28 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.